ArcticVLF:  test
    ArcticVLF:  hello
     anechoic:  hey
       Miulew:  hi from sweden!  (bjoern)
      Eto Ami:  konnichiha
    ArcticVLF:  hello from ohio
     anechoic:  ok I am not moderating this but act as a guide
     anechoic:  we can start by asking quesitons
     anechoic:  or stating parts that seemed interesting
    ArcticVLF:  I'll be lurking a bit cause i don't have the book yet
     anechoic:  or how we might use the techniques in our own work
     anechoic:  that's fine if you haven't read the book
    ArcticVLF:  ok
     anechoic:  you can still get something out of these book clubs
    ArcticVLF:  great
     anechoic:  so does anyone have anything they want to start with?
     anechoic:  oh and mispelling is OK
    ArcticVLF:  ok thats a plus :)
     anechoic:  due to the typing at a quick rate typos are OK
       Miulew:  i guess we focus on chapter 3
     anechoic:  yes we will be covering chapter 3
      Eto Ami:  granulation, yes?
     anechoic:  yes
     anechoic:  does anyone have q's aboout what a grain is?
    ArcticVLF:  its a fragment of a sound right?
    ArcticVLF:  sorry for any stupid questions ;)
     anechoic:  there are no stupid questions here
    ArcticVLF:  ok
     anechoic:  maybe stupid answers! ;)
    ArcticVLF:  heh
       Miulew:  it was nice to listen to the cd with different examples on granular synthesis
     anechoic:  but yes if you turn to pg 86 you will see the basic idea of a grain
     anechoic:  it is essentially a waveform modulated by a guassian envelope
     anechoic:  it doesn't have to be a guassian envelope though
     anechoic:  and the duration is from 1 - 100 mS
     anechoic:  on pg 89 there are examples of other types of envelopes
     anechoic:  does everyone here except ArticVLF have the book?
      Eto Ami:  have read it -- not with me now 
       Miulew:  the quasi-gaussian seems to be useful (the tukey) - curtis r. seems to have used this in early experiments
     anechoic:  ok...best to have the book while participating in the book club since we often times refer to pages and diagrams
       Miulew:  (i have book here)
     anechoic:  yeah on pg 99 there is some info on this
      Eto Ami:  von Hann also a useful env.
 <<<   PortNoiseComplaint has joined   >>>
 <<<   8/17/03 2:18:17 PM    >>>
     anechoic:  can ytou describe the von Hann?
     anechoic:  but the different envelopes have drastically diffferent affects on the grains
     anechoic:  as per pg99
     anechoic:  has anyone here played around with the Pulsar Synthesis patch?
    ArcticVLF:  i use audiomulch for granular synthesis and at times bidule
     anechoic:  does AM allow you to use other envlopes other than Guassian?
    ArcticVLF:  there is quite a few different options. but i never seen Guassian.
      Eto Ami:  von Hann (Hanning): http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/~pbourke/analysis/windows/#hanning
       Miulew:  in Am it is possible to change the shape...
       Miulew:  from triangle into rectangle
    ArcticVLF:  not yet at least
     anechoic:  Guassian might have another name but I'm sure that it is probably there
       Miulew:  you can change envelopes in AM - but not as selecting gaussian, tukey etcetera.
     anechoic:  Hamming is also known as the raised cosine window
    ArcticVLF:  well maybe im wrong because there is a shape slider.but it dosent say anything about sine,triangle ect.
     anechoic:  ah OK so you can define your own env
     anechoic:  ?
    ArcticVLF:  thats what it seems im not to sure i'll have to check into that
     anechoic:  ok
       Miulew:  from "help in AM" ... Shape - Envelope shape
       Miulew:  
       Miulew:  Each grain has an amplitude envelope consisting of an attack, sustain and decay portion. TrapFact determines the duration of the sustain portion relative to the duration of the attack and decay portions. When shape is 0, the envelope is a triangle, when it is 1 the envelope is a rectangle.
       Miulew:  
       Miulew:  
       Miulew:  
       Miulew:  AudioMulch Help   1997-2003  Ross Bencina
     anechoic:  yes RTFM! ;)
    ArcticVLF:  I guess im bad for not reading :D
     anechoic:  hahaha
       Miulew:  :)
    ArcticVLF:  :D
    ArcticVLF:  i'll do that tonight
 <<<   PortNoiseComplaint has left   >>>
 <<<   8/17/03 2:29:16 PM    >>>
       Miulew:  sorry for the massive pasting
     anechoic:  maybe we should talk a bit about the ch3 content
     anechoic:  no worries very acceptable
     anechoic:  it sounds like you get linear a-s-d segments
     anechoic:  and no curves
     anechoic:  in AM
     anechoic:  I'll be back in a couple of minutes...need to make a cup of coffee
    ArcticVLF:  ok
       Miulew:  yes - probably - the sinc, expodec, rexpodec curves should probably not be possible to to make in the AM
       Miulew:  but i haven't looked on this as a problem until now
 <<<   kubia has joined   >>>
 <<<   8/17/03 2:33:37 PM    >>>
       Miulew:  i think this chapter made me go deeper into the granular functions in AM and really understand some aspects
       Miulew:  instead of just tweaking around  :)
      Eto Ami:  which aspects?
     anechoic:  well can you access tables in AM?
     anechoic:  if so you can calculate your own envelopes and use them 
     anechoic:  similar to the GEN functions in Csound
       Miulew:  for instance the grain duration aspects - what happens  (see table 3.1 on p101)
     anechoic:  yes the duration also makes a big difference in sound
       Miulew:  i don't think it is possible to use tables in AudioMulch granulation
     anechoic:  hmm...is it a separate object?
     anechoic:  the granular generator that is
     anechoic:  another way around this limitation is to make your own granular object
     anechoic:  see pg91 for an example
       Miulew:  and build new textures with that object?
     anechoic:  which object are we refering to?
     anechoic:  the one you build from scratch?
     anechoic:  the object on pg 91 is the heart of any granular synth object
     anechoic:  it is simply an osc with an amp env
     anechoic:  and can be extended in any direction
    ArcticVLF:  it sounds like pulse comb is the closest thing as in shaping that is by ear in AM
     anechoic:  not sure I follow you here...
       Miulew:  by ear? (AM as in Amplitude Modulated? or AudioMulch?)
    ArcticVLF:  audiomulch
       Miulew:  ok
     anechoic:  pulse comb>?
    ArcticVLF:  it can give a sound a triangular sound
    ArcticVLF:  yes
     anechoic:  is a pulse comb some param of the gran in AM>?
    ArcticVLF:  yes
     anechoic:  what does it do?
     anechoic:  is it a env?
     anechoic:  it sounds like a freq domain effect
    ArcticVLF:  it seems to change the freq but gives it a different shape
    ArcticVLF:  it can also pulse a sound
     anechoic:  on pg 102 there is a graph showing a comb like FR
    ArcticVLF:  i hope im making sense :D
       Miulew:  i think so! :)
    ArcticVLF:  but it seems to describe shaping as you guys mentioned
     anechoic:  shaping in amplitude or freq space?
    ArcticVLF:  frequency
     anechoic:  ah so it creates a comb filter effect?>
    ArcticVLF:  yes
    ArcticVLF:  but it can create short or long pulses too
     anechoic:  it seems that it posisbly changes the grain duration and therefor the grain spectra
     anechoic:  ok I think it descibes the duration of the grain
    ArcticVLF:  yes
     anechoic:  got it now! :)
     anechoic:  so what can we do with grains?
     anechoic:  or maybe a better q to ask is what do WE do with grains?
    ArcticVLF:  pulse them change the freq and amp
      Eto Ami:  randomize or reconstitute
    ArcticVLF:  i'll look on the site to refresh my memory
    ArcticVLF:  i'll give param examples
     anechoic:  on pg 91 there is a list of organizational procedures
     anechoic:  matrices or screens
     anechoic:  overlapping streams
     anechoic:  clouds
     anechoic:  etc
      Eto Ami:  density / sparsity
      Eto Ami:  time strething
     anechoic:  sync or async?
      Eto Ami:  both!
     anechoic:  which appeals to p[eople more?
     anechoic:  and why?
      Eto Ami:  used to enjoy making clouds of speech
     anechoic:  interesting
      Eto Ami:  (async / hi density)
     anechoic:  and did you edit or process this?
      Eto Ami:  sure...
       Miulew:  and stretch in time?  (or compress)
     anechoic:  was this used to timestretch the speech?
     anechoic:  sorry!
     anechoic:  stepped on your q
      Eto Ami:  no, would pull grains from random locations in sample
      Eto Ami:  and reconsitute
 <<<   bill jarboe has joined   >>>
 <<<   8/17/03 2:57:34 PM    >>>
      Eto Ami:  lots of overlap also
     anechoic:  how long where the grains?>
      Eto Ami:  would experiment -- long grains keep the "speech" sound better
 <<<   bill jarboe has left   >>>
 <<<   8/17/03 2:58:27 PM    >>>
     anechoic:  on pg 96 there is a good description of async params
    ArcticVLF:  sorry to cut in.but you were right about the comb filter
     anechoic:  ok this is a product of the duration of the grains
    ArcticVLF:  pulsecomb is an amplitude modulated comb filter
     anechoic:  is that part of the granular object in AM?
       Miulew:  Eto Ami: Your experiments got me thinking of William S. Burroughs cut-up technique on a micro-scale!!  :)
    ArcticVLF:  yes
     anechoic:  exactly!
      Eto Ami:  yes, I started doing those with reel-to-reel tape...
      Eto Ami:  but could never cut the pieces small enough!
       Miulew:  i can see your frustration!  :)
     anechoic:  ok what about waveforms to use in the grain?
     anechoic:  speech is one idea, others?
    ArcticVLF:  how about small peices from an orchestra?
     anechoic:  ok...how would you do this?
     anechoic:  pile all the small files into one long one>
     anechoic:  ?
     anechoic:  or keep them separate>
     anechoic:  ?
    ArcticVLF:  yes piling 
     anechoic:  what about a waveform that varies in time?
    ArcticVLF:  you got me on that one :D
     anechoic:  also at the bottom of p103 there is mention of possible aliasing as an artifact
     anechoic:  has anyone played around with this?
    ArcticVLF:  someone said clouding? can someone give a quick definition?
     anechoic:  if the fundamental freq of the grain waveform is above 1/2 the Nyquist freq then aliasing can occur
       Miulew:  remember early sampler (on Sinclair Spectrum) on 12 kHz/8bit you could get very strange aliasing phenomena on some sounds   :)
     anechoic:  yes foldover is a useful tool
     anechoic:  for creating textures
       Miulew:  but i have not used aliasing as a tool to make sounds today
     anechoic:  you might want to explore this - the bufferFuct project made extensive use of foldover in LiSA
       Miulew:  nice - - what is LiSA?
     anechoic:  its a live sampling app made at STEIM 
     anechoic:  there is info on the microsound website
     anechoic:  look under bufferFuct
      Eto Ami:  in truth I find granular synthesis so ubiquitous now that it is no longer compelling
      Eto Ami:  at least, in a sort of "preset" way
     anechoic:  yeah I know what you mean
     anechoic:  this was my feeling back in 1997 when everyone was just discovering granular
     anechoic:  and preset overuse became a basis for entire compositions
     anechoic:  I think the idea is to use is along with other techniques
 <<<   kubia has left   >>>
 <<<   8/17/03 3:22:03 PM    >>>
     anechoic:  so as to not foreground any one technique
      Eto Ami:  very much agree with that!
       Miulew:  agree on that too! 
     anechoic:  but even Akufen could be considered granular
     anechoic:  so the technique can be applied in new and interesting ways
     anechoic:  ok maybe not 'new' but interesting
      Eto Ami:  I think it *could* be applied in a new way...
      Eto Ami:  just haven't found it yet
     anechoic:  Roads discusses micromontage in ch5 which can be seen as an exention of grains
     anechoic:  you just need to keep experimenting...see how you can subvert the technique or break it in some way
     anechoic:  to make it do things not intended by the designer
       Miulew:  anyone familiar with Bob Ostertag? - i think he maybe is using micromontage techniques . . but i might be wrong  . . anyone updated on that?
     anechoic:  I haven't heard Bob's work lately
     anechoic:  any mp3s you can point us to?
       Miulew:  maybe there is something at his site at http://detritus.net/ostertag/
     anechoic:  nope
     anechoic:  not that I can find
     anechoic:  but I will search out some other info on his work
     anechoic:  note: we have half an hour left to the book club
 <<<   ArcticVLF has left   >>>
 <<<   8/17/03 3:32:52 PM    >>>
      Eto Ami:  kim, I assume you don't use much granular synthesis in your own work?
     anechoic:  yes but not solely
     anechoic:  I tend to mix things up
     anechoic:  a great program for the PC is called GranuLab
     anechoic:  Pimmon uses it as a live performance instrument
      Eto Ami:  any experience with Roads' CloudGenerator?
     anechoic:  yes
     anechoic:  quite a bit
     anechoic:  it is a good tool
     anechoic:  I would also recommend DL'ing his Pulsar Synth
       Miulew:  GranuLab is to be found at http://hem.passagen.se/rasmuse/Granny.htm  
       Miulew:  is Pulsar Synth only for mac?
     anechoic:  yes
     anechoic:  it is made in SuperCollider
       Miulew:  aha
     anechoic:  but it is a very good tool
     anechoic:  for learning and creating
       Miulew:  i guess i have to buy me a mac some day
     anechoic:  but when I was PC based (my years in Silicon Valley) I played with GranuLab and it is really great also
     anechoic:  what program do you use on the PC?
       Miulew:  i use mostly AudioMulch and I have been using GranuLab before - but that was before I startet to read Microsound  :)  so now things start to sound different!
 <<<   ArcticVLF has joined   >>>
 <<<   8/17/03 3:41:32 PM    >>>
      Eto Ami:  There is another Mac-only program called Real Time Granular Synthesis
      Eto Ami:  which allows one to load samples and tweak parameters
     anechoic:  URL?
      Eto Ami:  http://home01.wxs.nl/~menti049/rtgs.html
      Eto Ami:  have used this quite a bit -- much fun
       Miulew:  it was very fun to make the klanghausen track - i got very much inspiration and hints from reading chapter 3
      Eto Ami:  your track's quite good, btw
       Miulew:  thanx! :)
       Miulew:  crusher-X is also a granulation sw for PC
     anechoic:  will DL RTGS and check it out...
     anechoic:  yes crusher x is very good too
       Miulew:  it was also interesting to read about the early computer tweakings Roads had to make to just compile some seconds of granulated sounds
       Miulew:  p108 and on
     anechoic:  yes computers back then were huge, slow, and expensive
     anechoic:  the power we have today is not fully appreciated
      Eto Ami:  ok, got to go... thanks for the chat & see you on the list
      Eto Ami:  promise to bring my book next time ;>
     anechoic:  cool thanks for joining!
 <<<   Eto Ami has left   >>>
 <<<   8/17/03 3:50:51 PM    >>>
       Miulew:  bye!  :)
     anechoic:  if anyone else want to hang out please feel free
     anechoic:  but I have some things I need to finish tonight
     anechoic:  so any last q;'s?
    ArcticVLF:  alright its been fun :D
       Miulew:  a last q?
     anechoic:  yes
     anechoic:  do oyu have any?
     anechoic:  you
       Miulew:  could it be possible to prepare some listening pieces - that those who will attend the discussion should have listened to?
     anechoic:  there are examples in the book on CD
     anechoic:  maybe someone could rip and UL this as mp3's?>
       Miulew:  yes
       Miulew:  i can do that
     anechoic:  would that be OK?
     anechoic:  I'll make a folder in the book club folder called sound_examples
     anechoic:  done
     anechoic:  see it?
    ArcticVLF:  i see it
     anechoic:  cool send me a personal email when its done?
     anechoic:  and I'll announce it to the list
     anechoic:  thanks so much for doing this!
       Miulew:  yes!  - i put examples there asap - hope this is OK with Roads?
     anechoic:  I'm sure it will be fine...he was pleased about the book club
       Miulew:  nice!
     anechoic:  and offered us a discount on the book
     anechoic:  via MIT Press
       Miulew:  well - have to go to bed - it is late here in sweden
     anechoic:  good night